You can find the same in the 1815 edition (page 231):

http://books.google.com/books?id=rsAtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq
=lanval+way+ellis&source=web&ots=0L_HL0QvwZ&sig
=6uDWxzoGx7fb-kVNUDVaReTlqjA#PPA231,M1

The Welsh text repeated above is very similar to that carried by the current
Triads authority, Dr. Rachel Bromwich.. Regarding the three sites named,
Bromwich carries no textual identification of Bangor Iscoed site either in the
actual Welsh text she gives or its translation - a manuscript of Robert Vaughan,
mid C17th AD, from his Hengwrt Library collection, Meirionshire, and now
known as Peniarth 185. Where Ellis ends 'Mangor is y coed.', Bromwich ends
'Mangor'.  That's commonly 'Bangor'.

Bromwich's notes on the texts (and alternative authorities/sources/versions),
however, acknowledge the Iscoed site as identification of this Bangor (Mangor):
Peniarth 228, "Thos. Wiliems, Trefriw" (and the oldest version of the triad), just
gives "Bangawr" - as does Robert Vaughan, Peniarth 185 (the Bangor/Mangor
doc. mentioned above) - but John Jones, friend and contemporary of Vaughan,
gives "Bangawr vawr yn fford y Maelawr" (Maelawr ... both 'plain' and places in
the marches of Wales where trading could take place/market whilst 'fford' means
river-crossing/ford - presumably the Dee, as in Bangor-on-Dee (Bangor Is-y-Coed,
Wrexham)*.  The MS BM/BL Addl. 14873 (Wm. Morris)** carries "Bangor Vawr
yn Iscoed ym Maelawr" (Jones, again, cited Bromwich p.217, this manuscript being attributed to his great friend Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt whose other version - the Bangor/Mangor above - is held by Bromwich to be an abridgement). 

*Nicholas R. Mann, THE ISLE OF AVALON , Sacred Mysteries... (2001 AD),  and now on googlebooks,
manages to locate a Bangor Is-coed in "South Wales".  Neat trick - given Wrexham's up near Chester!  But at
least he puts a ? against the identication of Caer Garadawg with Stonehenge.  Like several others, Mann mentions
12 Perpetual Choirs.  Others cite John Michell as the source for the idea ... but he also thought 10. (See pp. 129-30).

I also note the Latitude of the Bangor Iscoed monastery - pretty much 53 degrees north.  A road called 'Abbey' at this
Bangor is at 53 00 03.  So if you like 53 ...

**Martin/NLW (my thanks!) notes Bromwich consistently attaches Wm. Morris copy to BM/BL Addl. 14873
rather than 14867 - I note elsewhere that Mary Jones, say, attaches Wm. Morris to 14867.

The last version of John Jones appears to source George Ellis, above, but NOT
Iolo Morgan(n)wg et al - Series 1 of Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY, p.17,
1801.  Textually, the Iolo Series 1 Triad agrees with Vaughan's OTHER version,
the abridged one, in Peniarth 185 - and NLW* has been very helpful in pretty
much establishing that it is the almost exact copy of this abridged version, by Evan
- Ieuan Fardd - Evans, a man with access to both Hengwrt and Peniarth, plus the
one whose copy was made available to Iolo Morganwg's Myvyr.** co-authors,
Pughe and Jones, c/o Panton (Jnr.), which seems to source the Perpetual Choirs
triad in that book's Series 1 (Myvyr. Series 1 80, Bromwich TYP*** 90). 

*National Library of Wales ** Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY ***Trioedd Ynys Prydein.

William Owen Pughe finds mention in MABINIGI, A BOOK OF ESSAYS, by
Charles William Sullivan, p. 6: 'prime informant on Welsh Literature to ... (our)
George Ellis'.  Not here, though, one suspects - but he did have access to the
alternative to the Wm. Morris copy of the Lewis Morris 1738-dated text mentioned
above and copied from Vaughan, Peniarth 185.  It's called Panton MS 13 (Evan
Evans, acquired in 1787 by Paul Panton Snr., son-in-law of William Morris) - and
Iolo Morganwg's co-authors, Pughe and Jones, were lent it by Paul Panton Jnr. 
That authors of Myv.had access to both the Evans and Wm. Morris MSS.,
Bromwich notes, 1978 ed. (and carried independently, elsewhere), is clear from
text  therein, but  Bromwich, 1969, makes no mention of Panton 13 (NLW 1982B).
It is noted as a source in her 1978 edition, though.

I term Panton 13/Peniarth 185 'Basic' and Wm. Morris BL/BM Addl. 14873
(?14867)/Peniarth 216 'Elaborate':* 

*  The problem here - Bromwich appears to give BM (BL) Addl. 1873 Wm Morris as the source for Series 1 -
but this carries no 'Iscoed' which therefore makes it more like the Vaughan abridgement of John Jones than the
Vaughan copy attrib. Wm. Morris.  Peniarth 185 would seem a more accurate source for Iolo whilst BM (BL)
Addl. 14873 would seem the most likely source for Ellis, above. I tried to put the details together below:

I need to explain that Peniarth, Panton, BL, NLW etc are names of collections of
manuscripts sometimes also indicating their 'home'.  BL, for instance, is British
Library, but Peniarth and Panton are at NLW, National Library of Wales (NLW),
Aberystwyth.

Salisbury, too, finds mention in the Bromwich commentary (but not texts).  The
Welsh texts given are virtually identical here; C(h)aer G/Caradawg/Gariadawc. 
There are quite a number of Caer Caradocs dotted about, not least at Church
Stretton and Clun, so why Salisbury?  The answer seems to lie in Geoffrey of
Monmouth - he writes of a Kaercaradoc NOT FAR FROM Sarum/Salisbury. 
NEAR, not AT (which Old Sarum, say, is - noting Ellis, 1796, has 'at').  But that's
the likeliest source of the Ellis 'Salisbury', I'll hazard, and Bromwich also notes this
Geoffrey of Monmouth reference and calls it 'more natural' (TRIOEDD YNYS
PRYDEIN, Rachel Bromwich - for all references see pp. 217-218).  John Jones
acknowledges using Wiliems (circa 1545-1623, and of Gunpowder Plot connection)
as his source and, Bromwich further notes, the Jones version is likely to be the base
for that of Vaughan..  Notice, too, that Ellis, above, quite explicitly identifies Caer
Caradoc with Salisbury (and perhaps, thus, implicitly, with Old Sarum) - as does
Iolo Morganwg, it seems, quite explicitly (see below).

Note: There seems to be no provenance for the Bromwich Triad 90 much before
the late C16th AD. It is not a triad from the older Red, Black and White Books
(of mid C13th-C15th AD provenance) - Hergest, Caermarthen and Rhydderch.

That both triad traditions, Elaborate and Basic, prospered is evidenced by the
Wm. Morris-Ellis-Panizzi strand and that of Evan Evans-Series 1.  A deviant
variant of the latter, appears in Robert Sewell's 1847 THE CATECHISM OF
THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH IN ENGLAND, p. 33, where
he cites Bangor Widrin/Glastonbury, Cor Emrys/Ambresbury and Bangor Illtyd,
Glamorganshire and this is the line that leads us towards the later, John Michell,
threesome of Llantwit, Glastonbury and Stonehenge:

Sewell seems to be building on William Probert, 1823, of whom more below.
By way of 'elaborate' tradition contrast, and more accurately reflecting the sites
in pre-1800 MSS, see the Rev. William Barnes, NOTES ON ANCIENT
BRITAIN AND THE BRITONS, p. 90,1858:

"A Triad says there were three in the island of Britain one in Ynys Avallach
Glastonbury another at Caer Caradawc Old Sarum and the third at Bangor
and at each of those places twenty four divisions of singers ..." 

Another Rev., Lionel Smithett Lewis of Glastonbury, indicates our first mention of "Stonehenge", itself, building on the  'Ambresbury'.  This is from the 2003 edition of the 1922 ST. JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA AT GLASTONBURY .... (noting he mentions just 2 of the Choirs - and in a Druidic tradition, to him):

"It is extremely significant that, of the "Three Perpetual Choirs" of Britain,
Glastonbury ..... and Ambresbury, close to Stonehenge ..."

The underlining is mine.  We've moved from Probert's Emrys at Ambresbury,
1823, to Smithett's Ambresbury, close to Stonehenge, 1922.  That just leaves
the using in/at to put us at Stonehenge itself.

In 1830, an edition of ORLANDO (Charlemagne's Roland) appeared.  On Page 244 is an identical (?borrowed) annotation.  The credit is Antonio Panizzi, sometime Professor of Italian at the fledgling University of London and, later, Librarian at the British Museum Library.  But suspicious activity is common where Perpetual Choirs are concerned! 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nn4XAAAAMAAJ&dq
=orlando+1830+boiardo+panizzi+triades&printsec
=frontcover&source=web&ots=G6a6Npd8Pz&sig
=bJbkn7sAslITsl7SVSt-u2dhzBk#PRA2-PA244,M1

In the period 1801-07, one Iolo Morgan(n)wg produced a fraudulent version of
the Choirs Triad: Series 3.  His sites are commonly translated as being Glastonbury, Stonehenge and Llantwit Major (near where he lived!).  This is said to be the source for the John Michell CITY OF REVELATION/DIMENSIONS OF PARADISE (et al) insight: the Circle of Perpetual Choirs (CPC)*.   But is it?

*Probert's  THE ANCIENT LAWS OF CAMBRIA ...., 1823, is supposedly
a translation of Iolo - he changed details, like substituting 'Ambresbury'
(possibly the 'Stonehenge ' commonly given as the identification for it, as above)
for Iolo's 'Caer Caradoc' in the Iolo Triad 84.  Unless Caer Caradoc and
Ambresbury are somehow interchangeable - more (much, much more!) on this
below.  Did Probert's translation source (and inspire) Michell rather than the
Iolo original?  It would seem it (and he) did - along with other possible influences.
Probert calls the different triad versions in Iolo et al's Y MYVYRIAN ARCH
-AIOLOGY Series 1 and Series 3 of little significant difference from each other. 

I can't help thinking that the threesome Glastonbury, Bangor (?Iscoed) and Caer
Caradoc (?Old Sarum) is markedly different from that of Probert:  Glastonbury,
Bangor Illtyd (Llantwit Major) and ?Stonehenge (Caer Emrys in/at Ambresbury)! 
I think I repeat this observation below.

A note on Druidy and Stonehenge:  the identification may date back to the
Romans and was about in the mid-C16th AD (Aubrey, TEMPLA DRUIDUM,
1649, for example) to the extent that Inigo Jones, notes published 1655, et al,
decry the notion.  It survives as a chapter in Aubrey's MONUMENTA
BRITANNICA, publ. early C18th AD, a work possibly inspiring William
Stukeley, FRS.  He appears to bring together the Stonehenge site with Druidry
and Ambresbury.  Subsequently, the Rev. Smithett. 1922, actually makes this
into a Perpetual Choir site identification (along with Glastonbury, noting the
- utterly fallacious/spurious - Druidic tradition at both as a kind of combining
idea 'glue').  Did Smithett's 'Stonehenge' identification ('near') become conflated
with Iolo's in/at of Series 3 of Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY*?  *Mvy.

These are not the only versions: Yarker (1909), claiming Freemasonry tradition,
cites Caer-Salog (Salisbury), Avillon (Glastonbury) and Great Bangor* - and makes mention of Culdees.  His terms Caer-Salog and Avillon seem rooted in circa 1470 Sir Thomas Malory's MORTE D'ARTHUR. Others claim  Druidic/Culdee traditions citing Glastonbury, Iona and Mona or even Rosnat/Whithorn: 

http://books.google.com/books?id=F28cAoRntJwC&pg=RA1-PA207&lpg=RA1-PA207&dq=perpetual+choirs+of+britain&source=web&ots=1L69HWksAv&sig=AvwU8i9R-h63_b6TVVmrkr158_A&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PRA1-PA207,M1

There is a source for this idea.  It offers up Rosnat as an alternative to Bangor Iscoed.  Here's p. 437:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0AoHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA437&lpg=PA437&dq=rosnat+choir&source=web&ots=Zk29J2Tk_9&sig=PxLgRR7RwCpBrCUGgoG9yaeJquU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

*If I remember, Yarker was a rogue Freemason, of sorts.  His threesome is strikingly similar to Jones/Vaughan Peniarth
216 'Elaborate' with only the Maelawr bit missing, really, thus allowing Bangor Vawr to be just Great Bangor (=,
normally, the Menai Strait one!).

But what exactly was a Perpetual Choir?  

The answer lies in Orpheus - harmonising the land with the Stars and the Seasons
through music.  The SERIOUSLY BC Orphic tradition is carried in Plato.  Its
Christian renaissance started in the East.  Didn't reach here until C5th-C6th AD. 
There's no tradition in these Islands before that that I'm aware of (that can be
provenanced) and Marie Trevelyan of Llantwit Major quite explicitly stated this in
the context of Llaniltud Fawr/Llanilltyd (LLANTWIT MAJOR: ITS HISTORY ...
1910 AD).  So, no Choirs, no Celts, no Druids - not in this context.  When it did
finally arrive, it consisted of shift-systems of monks keeping up a neverending
chanting.  The texts reviewed in Bromwich's TRIOEDD ... tell of 2400 monks
working a shift system of 100 an  hour "in prayer and service to God ceaselessly
and without rest forever" in "a harmonious song, uninterrupted choir", laus
perennis, custom of Agaunum, louange perpetuelle, perpetual psalmody etc. 
The CodexCeltica site (link given - but quite a way down!) also touches on the
theme in the context of Apollo worship - and a history (of sorts) of "24/7" (and the
unique North American Christian Triad threesome of Bangor, Ireland, Bangor
Iscoed and Iona) can be found at:

www.transformmi.com/247prayerhistory.php

Of note here and below, an email from Mike

Geoff,

Was just reading your site (after seeing you mention it on Plusnet's
website). I noticed an anomaly in your research/quoting, which I suspect
was caused by a simple mis-reading of your source:

On your perpetual Choirs page
(http://www.geoffss.plus.com/perpetualchoirs.htm), you say:-

"and a history (of sorts) of "24/7" (and the unique North American
Christian Triad threesome of Bangor, Ireland, Bangor Iscoed and Iona)
can be found at: http://www.transformmi.com/247PrayerHistory.cfm"

And also:-

"Please note Glastonbury: this alone seems (almost - noting North
American Christian ?Evangelical "24/7" sites!) above suspicion, if you
are happy - as I am - that Isle of Avallach/Avalon/Avillon/Glass
Isle/Bangor Widrin denote this evocative Somerset town."

But following your link and reading the 24/7 history, they actually
say:-

"At Bangor, Comgall instituted a rigid monastic rule of incessant prayer
and fasting. Far from turning people away, this ascetic rule attracted
thousands. When Comgall died in 602, the annals report that three
thousand monks looked to him for guidance. Bangor Mor, named "the great
Bangor" to distinguish it from its British contemporaries, became the
greatest monastic school in Ulster as well as one of the three leading
lights of Celtic Christianity. The others were Iona, the great
missionary center founded by Colomba, and Bangor on the Dee, founded by
Dinooth; the ancient Welsh Triads also confirm the "Perpetual Harmonies"
at this great house."


Note particularly they say "this great house" singular. They are NOT
suggesting that their three venues are all in the Welsh Triad. Their
history is talking of the spread of that style of monastic worship, from
Ireland to Wales & Iona, and them (Bangor Ireland, Iona &  Bangor Dee)
being 3 leading centres of Celtic Christianity in that day.

My reading of that last sentence of their paragraph, is that Bangor on
Dee (founded by Dinooth) was (alone) mentioned in the Welsh Triad! I
conclude this from the paragraph structure. The early part of the
paragraph talks about Bangor in Ireland. The last sentence then brings
in the other two leading centres of Celtic Christianity, Iona, and
Bangor on Dee (your near Wrexham venue). 

Now I can see how "this great house" (singular) could be thought
(wrongly) to be referencing (only) Bangor in Ireland, but if that was
the intent of meaning, then it is my belief it would have been mentioned
in the previous sentence of the paragraph. 

Therefore, I conclude that their only intended meaning possible, was
that Bangor on Dee (alone) is mentioned in the Welsh Triad, (the other
two venues in the Welsh Triad not being important to the history they
are telling - so aren't disclosed). So Bangor in Ireland and Iona, are
not part of a "North American Christian Evangelical 24/7 Triad".... (to
merge your two summaries of that page and misquote you!)  ;O)

I hope this sheds some light into your research, and gives you
illumination as you quest for truth & meaning in your research.

Mike

My thanks.  Now back to Ellis:

Notice that the Ellis triad specially tells us of 'The three', not the four, seven or
thirty-one, no, just the three.  Iolo also carries just three.  How strange, then
to read of 'the three' at 1911 LoveToKnow, 'with bangor Illtud being a fourth':

www.1911encyclopedia.org/Bangor

And '420 Saints' - to the more common 2400?  Whatever. John Michell goes
6 better ... and turns 'The three' into ten: the Circle of Perpetual Choirs (CPC).*

*Notes (10-12-07): Ani Williams refers to the idea of 'twelve different
sanctuaries' she gleaned from .... John Michell, NEW LIGHT ....  And that
ties to Nicholas Mann, THE ISLE OF AVALON ... (above).  Find the Ani
Williams at www.aniwilliams.com/avalon_songlines.htm  Another relevant
'find' here is www.lexiline.com/lexi234.htm  The lexiline idea is evocative
of the 12 round a central point - zodiac signs, months ...  Ani Williams  gives
an interesting 7-12 connection (elsewhere on her site): a musical scale (of 7)
to a musical octave (of 12). I explore the (comparatively recent!) invention
of this 12-note scale elsewhere.  Of note re Michell, his New Jerusalem plan
and his CPC 12 (and carrying the '51' degree sunrise line ... but not the 321
moonset that delivers 90 ... because this is 2008 and not 2006, perhaps?),
a fascinating site:

The Michell Circle of Perpetual Choirs (my graphic)

Note:  given the Michell 'Ten' CPC
has little (of any substance) to do
with any kind of Triads tradition that
can be provenanced - and found, 
much beyond Probert, 1823 AD -
then what, if anything, is going on? 
And, if something is going on, then
who, exactly, dunnit?  This given that
the Ambresbury Choir site
identification exists nowhere,
it seems, before Probert,
1823, whilst the Bangor Illtud
(Llantwit) identification exists
nowhere as a Triad Choir site before 1801. Smithett, 1922, mentions Druids
and Stonehenge - do these inform Michell?  The 'Bangor Vawr', cited in the
John Jones version, incidentally, means Great Bangor - so you can see why
/how some nominate the Menai Strait Cathedral and University College city,
perhaps, as, indeed, you can understand the great Bangor Abbey, County
Down?  I don't get 'Iona' at all, though.

The surprising thing, to me, is that the dimensions used by Michell in 1972
(and those he subsequently abandons in later forays*) actually evidence some
kind of esoteric tradition of shape and number (albeit imperfectly/stylistically**)
- and these properties are utterly in keeping in themes he advances elsewhere. 
So why does he chuck 'em when what he started with kinda actually seems
to deliver relevant insight his later 'takes' don't?  I give in - and he doesn't tell
me!  I did ask, once or twice ... and nicely ...  Honest.  John Michell's 'insight',
however, creates a problem: it has very little to do with any tradition of
Perpetual Choirs, let alone ten of them (see below).  And yet, if his original
thinking is explored. things emerge that suggest something was going on. 
And in the frame are some of the early Fellows of the Royal Society.  I note
here John once, rather enigmatically, remarked to me: "Layers of meaning ...."

Please note Glastonbury: this alone seems (almost - noting North American
Christian ?Evangelical "24/7" sites!) above suspicion, if you are happy -
as I am - that Isle of Avallach/Avalon/Avillon/Glass Isle/Bangor Widrin
denote this evocative Somerset town.

*To see the John Neal Appendix 6 list of the latest Michell sites - as
in Heath/Michell's THE MEASURE OF ALBION - combined with a
fledgling/developing investigation of these - take a look at
http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/decagon.htm
The OS equivalents given are not from Appendix 6 but were posted
by me on this site's defunct discussion forum.  I have enquired (without
response to date) as to why these OS sites have not been correctly
attributed.  Please note that, for my purposes, they're wrong anyway!

** And try sticking a sheet of A4 to a football - that's essentially what
Michell's doing here.  Messy!  Decagons are flat, Planet Earth ain't. 
Then there are the relationships pi and phi. What values do we use?

John Michell posited a decagon of choir sites (the ten corners with significant
centre) as based on the (supposed) Iolo Morganwg threesome of Stonehenge,
Glastonbury and Llantwit Major.  I dubbed this (appropriately) the Michell
Decagon, but, firstly, it must have been very drafty and oft-times wet at Stone
-henge doing all this perpetual chanting (let alone somewhat Romano-military
at its Old Sarum alternative) and, secondly, it is the threesome of Salisbury
(Cathedral), a chapel west of Glastonbury and St. Illtyd at Llanilid that lends
itself more readily to decagonal maths.  They almost work* -  and Llanilid has
a very respectable (and Arthurian) past, granted Adrian Gilbert, Alan Wilson
& Baram Blackett - THE HOLY KINGDOM.  The 'Ilid' is said to derive from
(Man of) Gilead, Joseph of Arimathea.

* About 41.1 and 41.4 miles at an angle of about 142.7 degrees (v. necessary 144 degrees) - but bear in
mind plane geometry is only conventionally applicable to distances of about 30 miles or so.  The Glastonbury
site is a small chapel uncovered by excavation on Beckery Hill (Bride's Mound as in Brigit.  Apparently, this
once stood on a pre-Christian site, was dedicated firstly to Mary Magdalene and later, secondly, to St Bride,
there possibly being a covent there, too. It's circa ST484383 OS and by an Old Way. I note a church just south
of Llanilid at 'St Mary's Hotel', Lat. 51.51(3-ish), by-the-by, whilst Old Sarum/Salisbury = Virgin of the
Assumption.

Credit for Beckery Hill (and thanks):

More below .... But, for now,  back to Michell's Decagon: it can comprise two
interlocking pentagrams, Lady and Goat.  There would be 10 'Precious Gems'
(phi points) and one of these will be on the Vale of Berkeley by the River Severn
- a 'where-the-lady's-legs-meet' site.  "Berkeley Hunt", note, is Cockney rhyming
slang (for this exact geographical area and that exact biological spot* - and, also,
hence, the derogatory 'berk' as in "e's a proper/right berk").  Its mirror, where the
horns meet (Goat/Devil), would be at/by Shenstone, Kidderminster (as in goat/
kid):

         LADY                  GOAT

The green dots denote multiple
phi points - "precious gems" to
Kepler. (Where the chords cross
is easier to see?)

Two signify here - and both are
on the (or, more accurately, a)
model line of symmetry (the black line).  It is exactly 15 degrees off OS 'up'.

Place one atop t'other and you'll have ten gems on a 10-horned 'beast'. You need
to use the geometry of circles, squares and hexagons to develop these shapes a la
straight edge and compasses construction.

*But I can only date the idea to the 1930s to date!

(For Michell's idea investigated elsewhere visit http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/decagon.htm for example). 

Note also that the tenfold (decagonal) division of a circle into the 36 X table is called the 'Gematrian Wheel',
apparently http://www.greatdreams.com/numbers/1111/1111.htm

These pentagrams can also be expressed as "Phi Chalices":

This is a symbol for St John the Evangelist, one of the two Sts John of Jerusalem
- another is eagle.  Noting that some believe 3, 11, 13 and 33 are significant in
Freemasonry (Robert Howard for one), this happens (and see Robin Heath:
www.skyandlandscape.com/Article%20by%20Robin%20Heath.htm):

THE "PHI" CHALICE

The 'chalice' is made of 4 of 5 corners of a 'Lady' pentagon/pentagram star,
with the 5th point being where the line from Point St. John enters the circle.* 
Is this, perhaps, the real Holy Grail?  Note a where-the-lady's-legs-meet site
one of 5) where the two blue lines intersect (and the black one): it is a
multiple phi point, shorter cut blue line to longer - and it's just geometry (of a
sort), nothing else - except that 3113 (51 53)!

Between Queenhill (Cun Hill) and Puckrup are where the river cuts the axis -
and there is a church at Queenhill dedicated to St. La(/u)wrence.  Now he's
the one who, traditionally, carried a non-Zimbabwe drum Holy Grail (no. it's
the Valencia Chalice) - but this is a changed dedication from the earlier St.
Nicholas, someone specifically identified with 'pure manna .... pure water'.
A "pure river of water of life", of course, is in REVELATION, 22,1.  But
"clear as crystal", the River Severn?** 

Note re. Queenhill: I read the church was called"St. Nicholas in the Middle Ages"
- but it's on OS as such in 1884-6 and 1889.

Perhaps a William Camden's BRITANNIA entry for Gloucester, might have
informed someone, once-upon-a-time, however?  Sitting on the eastern side of
the Severn, its name is said to derive from one Glywys or mean bright (noble/
famous) place.  But Camden wrote (allegedly):

" ... founders called it Glaiuon ... from Caer Glosgii iis, "the City of the
   pure waters".

www.britannia.com/history/city/glos.html

Or did he?   The quote is from the 1870 John Timbs,  Abbeys, Castles and Ancient Halls
of England and Wales.... The  British Library - helpful as ever! - to me, 27-02-08 (and my thanks):

Thank you for your reply.  I have now checked the 1695, 1722 &
1789 editions of Camden but none of them appear to give the
nformation that John Timbs quotes.  I have attached copies of the
1722 & 1789 editions; unfortunately I do not have access to a
digital copy of the 1695 edition.

I have also checked Timbs but he fails to give any reference other
than the words ‘according to Camden’.

This follows an earlier send from BL of relevant BRITANNIA 1586, 1607 (1610)
editions whilst I found the 1970  - no Caer Glosgii iis there either, in any of them. 
So where does Timbs get this 'Camden' from?  Only Timbs c/o BRITANNIA ON-LINE
and me c/o it carry Caer Glosgii iis.  I've asked David Nash Ford - the on-line editor
and also of the invaluable to me EARLY BRITISH KINGDOMS (ebk) site to help.
But nothing so far ... 

But why would the highly-respected Timbs make it up?  He's a marvellous editorial
career coupled to publishing over 150 volumes.  In 1834 he was elected Fellow
of the Society of Antiquaries at circa 33 years of age.  He frequently cites Camden -
and on one occasion, in another book, he even criticises a Camden observation on
the subject of Edward, the Black Prince (CURIOSITIES ...) for his lack of the provision
of an authority!  

Is the ref. above, then, a post 1798 BRITANNIA or some other Camden book entirely
- like the Gloucester Visitation?   Camden - after some thought by me! - seems to use
Camden the way I use my own reference library.  Did he have a library with (a)
Camden as a part .... Um!  Or is the 'Camden' the Earl of Camden FSA contemporary
of Timbs, Sir John Jeffreys Pratt (whose father was FRS, 1742)?

Mr Marjoram - my thanks - of Rare-Books, BL, has been of remarkable assistance and
not only trawled the BRITANNIAs and Timbs for me but also took a look at Camden's
1605 REMAINES.  Nothing presented itself, unfortunately, but the point is made that
this (1605) is but the first of many, many editions - as there are more BRITANNIAs twixt
1789 and the 1870 Timbs' publication.  Again, BL, my thanks - geoffss, 28-02-08.

I note that all BRITANNIAs looked at carry the Timbs' 'Glaiuon' - 'bright', and therefore
Gloucester is the same/similar Bristol (Brightstowe/Bristow).  Both Bride places once,
perhaps?  There's also an idea that the Glou/Glow/Glovus/Gloui/Gloiu may be an
ancestor of Vortigern,  There was a post-Roman kingdom called Glovia. and I note too
- as others have - the possibility of/in glanum, pure.  Here is a thorough review sans Caer
Glosgii iis:

I note, too: "legend associates a branch of the Déssi with Caer Loyw" or Gloucester, 
apparently the same branch which was descended from Pascent son of Gwrtheyrn."
www.archive.org/stream/ycymmrodor21cymmuoft/ycymmrodor21cymmuoft_djvu.txt

Was the textual Caer Loyt Coyt really Gloucester?
www.britannia.com/history/arthur/atherstone.html

*Note: Mouth of the Severn and Lat. 360/7 pretty much defined by a vertical line through LLANTWIT. 
If you look at Ptolemy, though, C2nd AD ...  Those sitings on 3 of the 4 'King's Peace' roads of these
Isles, Ermine being the 4th, are precise to a few hundred metres or so (3-400 metres Stony Stratford and
Enderby, 5-600 Goring).  The Glastonbury site is just slightly south-easr of the Abbey and south-west
of theTor - Fisher Hill, at the eastern end of Wearyall..  The Latitude drop-on 3113' N is exact.  What's
more, John the Divine/Evangelist was a noted virgin - and 7 is noted as being the virgin number.

Consider the Ordnance Survey grid below and how it fits to the Snake-in-a-cup
of  St. John.  In fact, it covers the Severn, including the river well before anyone
ever invented 'Bristol Channel.  That led to the 360/7 Virgin Lat/SS7/ST7 - pretty
much defining the Severn Mouth:

OS GRID

HJ
NO
ST

ST John?

SS7, ST7, Lat. 360/7
The 'Virgin' Lat.

You have to rotate it clockwise to match the to phi chalice.  Note, too, that
this ST JOHN is part of the a bigger one - the 6 major OS 'boxes', as shown
by the first letter ('S' here) are also HJNOST.

*The actual term 'Bristol Channel' first appears in the 1701 AD maps by Robert Morden and Herman
Moll map, this latter cartographer being very close to William Stukeley, client of the 2nd Duke of
Montagu and mapper of Roman Roads (noting a Grenville Collins 1693 reference to "The Severn or
Channell of BRISTOL" where either term represents to water to at least Lundy - which is where Moll
sites his 1701 Bristol Channel, too).  I have explored this in some detal since posting this page:  1701
marks the first appearance of 'Bristol Channel' bur areas like Channell of Bristol and Mouth of the
Severn/Severn Estuary exist on maps of C17th Ad provenance.  The convention now (UKHO) is to have
Channel meet Estuary/Mouth at a line from Lavernock Point (another St. Lawrence Church site) to Sand
Point, roughly Lats 54-53.9.  That's about 2 miles south of Lat. 360/7.  For a detailed study (and some
peculiar Ordnance Survey outcomes) go to:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dhsvjc9j_0gd5gzz

Notice that mirror 3113 - and Freemasonry is said to love 3, 13 and 33*! - is
51 53 in Latitude terms. All these 5s, 3s and 1s! The Sq Rt 3 is 153 : 265-ish,
51 X 3 = 153 and 53 X 5 = .... 265.  North-to-south, that the Michell CPC
'lives' twixt Lats. 51 and 53**.  And there's one other thing: that circle (given
stylised maths) is bigger than a decagon it could describe by 6.66 miles.  So
the model  could be said to be "dressed with (wearing) the Sun" (see St. John's
'Woman' of REVELATION, 12, 1 - 12, 3).**

Author's note (10-06-08):  over on "Tarot II" there's a developing area
whose origin lies in Dave Brandon's work on rainbow angles, this now
developed (and still developing!) c/o Mick Saunders.  One 'outcome'
is the progression 6, 15, 24, 33, 42, 51, 60, 69, 78, 87, 96 ...123 ... 222. 
The formula is 6 + (9 X n).  Look at all those mirrors - 24 and 42, for
instance.  And, c/o Mick, 6 - (9 X n): -3, -12, -21.  I mention it here
because numbers out of the sequence appear also as angles when a
decagon is tilted at 3 degrees off its axes - 33, 15 and 51 for instance -
as applies in the model I present here.  Note also the curiosity 12, 1 -
12, 3 REVELATION and 12, 21 and 123.

* Note on the Ordnance Survey, ex Board of Ordnance: it is commonly abbreviated to OS.
O is letter 15 and S letter 18 = ... 33.  9 X 33, 297, I note, yields the 'mirror': 3 X 33 X 3. 
7 gets on with the 3, 11 and 33 possibilities:  together they generate Root 2-alikes.  Sq. Rt.
2 is 1.414213562 ... whilst 140/99 (7 X 20)/(3 X 11 X 3) = 1.41414.... (thanks, PMac!). 
There's also the similar! 99/70 (3 X 11 X 3)/(7 X 10) = 1.4142857 ...  The two integer
based values mean to 1.41421356 ... correct to 8 decimal figures. Sq. Rt 2 is called the
"Constant of Pythagoras" by some.  Note: we have a 3113, of sorts, featured at Point St.
John, above. We also have a Severn, of sorts ... a 10-cornered decagon ... nines ...
I also  note my combined Sq rt 2 integer-alike can be expressed by primes 1153 X 17 over
2sq X 3sq X 5 X 7 X 11.

** A curiosity at Lat 53 is the Lat. value: 69.15, noting the relationship 6, 9, 15 is explored elsewhere.

***Click on Geometry/diags to see 'Isis'- a lady twixt two pillars (rather like Samson, I
note, and Tarot 'The World' and the Long Man of Wilmington) - created on a bed of
circles (the Seed and Flower of Life), based on the maths of the solar hexagram, the
Lady pentagram and phi, and utterly consistent with the Kabbalistic Tree of Life whilst
evidencing the "Fruit", the regular polygons and 'hedrons'.  It's just geometry - of a sort -
basically.

(I note here - 5s, 3s and 1s* - that 355/113 is Pi correct to 6 decimal places whilst 553 + 113 = 666
Ialso note REV. 13, 18: Here is wisdom ... 666.  13 X 18 = 234,  + mirror 432 = ....
Also, if a right-angled triangle carries 23.5 degrees,  t'other must be ...?).  However .... caution!
There is an MS surviving (the oldest I  read) that gives 616 (it seems) and not the now ubiquitous
666.  *The Euclid 47 ("John")  3-4-5 triangle is angled 53.1 and 36.9 correct to one decimal figure.

There is one particular part of REVELATION -12, 15 - "And the serpent cast
out of his mouth water as a flood ...".  Let's go where we are sent with this one:
we need a "great red dragon" - 12, 3 - which is Wales in virtually anyone's
currency, these days, isn't it, and we need a flood from its mouth - and Severn
Bore springs to mind?*

* In the MABINOGIAN, LLUDD AND LLEFELYS, it is clear that the term 'red dragon' identifies the areas
now Wales AND England.  The 'white dragon' signals invaders, presumably firstly Lludd's imminent Roman threat
and, later, Vortigern's Saxons.  The tale is remarkable in that Lludd orders his kingdom measured and no-one asks
how = they knew how?  They just got on with it, anway, and came up with Carfax, Oxford, as the centre.  The 2
warring dragons are buried there - but then dug up and taken to Dinas Emrys, Snowdonia.

(I note also that the CPC 'Llantwit' vertex, Glamorgan, in on Lat. 51.4415 - a mirror of sorts - click on 153 - Mirrors. 
And under 0.9 of a mile off 360/7 Lat - the 'Virgin'.*  It might interest you to learb that Roslin Chapel sits on Lat.
55.855, another 'mirror')  The CPC axis sits on Lat. 51.115, another mirror.  Of course,  you'd need a decimal system
for these to be design-deliberate ... allied to quite remarkable (and/or recent?) ability to obtain Lat. values with some
quite remarkable precision, you think?  Unless the whole thing just looks too 'recent' in origin/inspiration? 

The Holy Oblation* ?24888?miles (Tentative, speculative and latest section)

Perpetual Choirs appear in Dr. Rachel Bromwich's TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN,
Triad 90 (Vaughan abbrev. Jones acc. Bromwich - but she gives various versions,
as detailed above):

"Tri Dyfai Gyfangan Ynys Prydein  un oedd yn Ynys Afallach/yr ail Nyghaer
Garadawc/a'r trydydd ym Mangor."

Compare with Iolo, Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY (Series 3 of Book 2,
P 70), Triad 84, sourced (by Iolo) from a volume of the Rev. Richards of
Llanegwad:

"Tair prif Gyfangor ynys Prydain: Bangor Illtud Farchawg yng Nghaer
Worgorn/Cor Emrys yng Nghaer Caradawg/a Bangor Widrin yn ynys
Afallen."

So Bromwich, drawing on material cited above, gets an Isle of Avallach (Avalon/
Glastonbury), a Caer Caradoc (of which there are a plentitude - though she, like
me, notes Old Sarum here) and 'Bangor' (which she identifies- or notes an
identification - with Bangor Iscoed, Wrexham).  Any place with a church was a
'bangor', possibly - as in 'holy place'?*  Iolo, on the other hand, generates, what
appears to be Llantwit Major (Llanilltud Fawr) associated with a 'Caer Worgorn'
(possibly Caer Morgan, the king Glamorgan derives its name from - Morgannwg
- much as Iolo does - another Morgannwg), a Choir (of Merlin or Ambrosius -
'Emrys') at a Caer Caradoc (which there is reason to believe Iolo identified with
Old Sarum but which is now commonly identified with Stonehenge ... or Amesbury
... but Andrew Collins now - 'with others', he says in an email to me - identifies Avebury as this site), and what appears to be Glastonbury (Ynys Witrin/Glass Isle).  Glastonbury** seems common to both, but Llantwit replaces Bangor Iscoed and Stonehenge subsequently usurps Old Sarum?.  And we've seen above the CPC Michell (supposedly) inspired from these (supposed) Iolo three!

*Notes: I find Bangor: "a monastery, religious settlement, academy, college (within a wattle fence)"/spelt
Bancor in Bede, 772 AD/wattled fence itself and-or a retaining rod in one/white choir/high choir/circular hut/place
of the choir.  Certainly, we find "Abbey" evidenced at various specific (and pertinent) Bangor sites.  Now, throw
in the fascinating corban, sacrifice/offering to god (and crow/raven, of course) as well as coeur/heartcore (and Kore)
and gore/blood ... but the on-line dictionary (GERIADUR) I consulted was quite specific about cor (with an
accent - ?long vowel?) - choir.  Gor, it tells me (same mark) means pus.

**  I note here David Hatcher Childress, ANITGRAVITY AND THE WORLD GRID.  Apparently - it says here -
a vibrating stone was brought to Beckery Island, Glastonbury, "by the Plan of the Cosmic Chaplains and Elohim
geomancers ...".  Make of that what you will!

http://books.google.com/books?id=ObY0AAAAIAAJ&dq=ancient+cambria+
probert&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=LACq9vCw3l&sig=
tozM17768OyyoEpQ5UU15emuMZU

You want about Page 388-444 or so from the page menu.

So, one problem lies in the possible admixture/conflation of various Choir/Caer/Cor/Gor possibilities*.  Stonehenge, for instance, can be 'dancing stones' - Choir Gaur - so you have Gor alikes at Glastonbury (Bangor Widrin), Llantwit (Bangor Illtud), Stonehenge (Cor Emrys/Choir Gaur), and, as Michell notes, Goring, a fourth CPC site.- 'Meeting Place of Choirs'/ 'choir-place' (gor-ting) this subsequently becomes, in Michell** (the first in THE MEASURE OF ALBION and the second on the Jonathan Cainer website http://www.cainer.com/michell/oct1702.html).  And Goring is another site evocative of a decagon and a CPC of ten (perpetual) 'choirs'.  Notice, though, how Stonehenge's dance (Stonehenge/Chorea Gigantum) becomes song (as in chorus/choir - and choir derives from the Greek 'song and dance' dramatic chorus).  See here, for example, http://codexceltica.blogspot.com (the site is an utter gem generally but particularly apposite here and with reference to 'Perpetual Choir'). 

*  gor is chor in Irish, noting chorus/chorea  **So what would John make of
Goring-by-Sea?

GORING

This is a detail from an old (late C19th AD OS) map of Goring.  The River
Thames is just to the left and the ancient Icknield Way to the right.  The detail
reads 'The Temple'.  In THE MEASURE OF ALBION, John Michell mentions
visiting Goring (with Robin Heath).  He applies the word 'sanctuary' - and notes
a property called 'The Temple' ("Appropriately", I think he writes).. Two letters
to me from an officer of the Goring and Streatley Local History Association - and
my thanks! - deny any  tradition of any "sanctuary", as such, at Goring, but note
a mediaeval building thought to have once on this Temple site, a hostelry!  A
sanctuary, of sorts, arguably?

Had John and/or Robin consulted a late-ish C19th AD OS map, say 1877 or
1883, (Berkshire), then they would have found 'The Temple', as above.  It was
actually a substantial waterfront house (and estate), dating from Mid-Victorian
times - and can be seen pictorally c/o using English Heritage 'Viewfinder'/a search
for 'The Temple' + Goring + 'Henry Taunt', 1899, etc.).  John Michell and Robin
Heath found the private drive that leads to a newer The Temple - at SU601817 to
the 1930-demolished building sited SU601816.  The former is the some-time
residence and recording studio of Pete Townsend of  The Who fame, I believe.

The Mid-Victorian the Temple was one of a number of River Thames property developments coming in the wake of the building of the Great Western railway line through Goring, from Paddington, and on towards North Wales by way of  Princes Risborough. The impact on this on the villages along that part of the Thames - and our 'hostelry' are current lines of enquiry (geoffss, 23-11-07).  There's also a 'The Temple' boathouse still in existence, and the Temple Cottages on Elvenden Road (thanks, Bernard!), once the estate's tied cottages.  The earliest I can date the house to, currently, is a mortgage dated 1873 and including the right to 'present' to the Goring church (advowson) and lands. The was the (refusable) right to nominate to a church benfice. Gardiners - it was Lawrence Weave who mortgaged The Temple + lands + advowson in 1873 for £10000 - are listed as of some substance in Goring in
the C19th AD.  A Samuel W. Gardiner is associated with a property called Coombe Lodge, Goring, 1852.  I found a 1793 (pre-railway) painting that shows a substantial building is the right kind of area - assuming we are looking north.  And we are, and there it is - a mill!  Nothing but trees and fields where the Temples 1 and 2 were later to stand, just by it (thanks, again, Bernard).   The nunnery, as indicated, was in the nearby town - and some distance away.

Note:  c/o Bernard, Goring Gap Walks (and my thanks).  It's Cleeve Mill in the picture, with 'The Temple' site to the left,
a clump of tree and a field.  Not even a hostelry!  Oh, well ... There Is a PH comes up on Multimap (but not OS).  I think
it's the Cleeve Reach Boathouse, circa SU601823.  That's accessible via Spring Farm.  Is there, I wonder, any special
property in the spring(s)?

The advowson above applies to the Goring St. Thomas Church (that used to be
St. Mary and part of what seems to have been a small and somewhat unruly
nunnery).  There's also the nearby Elvedon Priory ... and legends of a tunnel!

Returning to 'gor', generally, what a possible complication is that Glastonbury can be identified with the kingdom of Gorre as can Llantwit with the capital of
Gorfynedd (Gorwenydd in the Triads assoc. sheep of Caradoc, Iolo 85), Glywysing.  And let us not forget the Cor of (Llanilid - Silurian Capital?) Ilid assoc.with St Paul coming here or that some identify Ilid with St. Peter.  In fact, in some 'legend', most of the (British Israel) New Testament heads this way, apparently!

STONEHENGE?

If I search the internet for Ambresbury together with Triads, I find Iolo's Series
3 appears to give (at 84 - or, in one case, 86) a Perpetual Choir site " the Choir
of Ambrosius at (or in) Ambresbury'.  If you look at my Iolo Welsh version
(courtesy of the University of Wales - thankyou) above you'll see Cor Emrys at
Caer Caradoc.  There's not an 'Ambresbury' in sight - but there is in 1823 and
Probert.  Did Probert source it from Iolo?  Certainly not from Iolo's Series 3,
Triad 84, above. - and the other version, series 1, triad 80, is from Robert
Vaughan: Caer Caradoc.  No.  Later Iolo-related material specifies Old Sarum.
It was Geoffrey of Monmouth and William of Stukeley FRS, possibly, that led
to Probert making Iolo's Caer Caradoc into Ambresbury?  And this, in turn,
informed Smithett, perhaps.

I can see that Cor Emrys can be Choir of Ambrosius but Emrys was also Merlin*... and Stonehenge is known as Merlin's Precinct (and, in legend, he built the place).  Nennius writes of an Ambrosius as a counsellor to Vortigern (in fact I saw 'elder' or 'younger' implying more than one).  Geoffrey of Monmouth conflated him with Myrddin (as in Caermarthen).  But he called the combo Merlinus.  Why?  The French for excrement, apparently.

And, next, just how does Caer Caradoc translate as Ambresbury?  I mean how?  I suppose you could turn to the MABINOGIAN (DREAM OF RHONABWY) and/or Geoffrey of Monmouth:  Saxon treachery at Amesbury Abbey/Mons Ambrius.  Stonehenge - a spurious legend is that the stones were erected in memorium?  It's just by it - and the bodies of Vortigern's nobles treacherously slain are supposed to be buried there at 'the monastery founded by Abbot Ambrus (Ambrose and ?sic Ambrius - my fault in transcribing perhaps?) not far from Kaercaradoc that is now called Salisbury' (G of M, as in Richard Barber's MYTHS AND LEGENDS OF THE BRITISH ISLES, P.58) even if Stonehenge predates the event a tad.  Elsewhere I find the note: ' but Ambresbury fell in the C6th' (Nesbit - "British-Israel" stuff, the Biblical 'Lost Tribes' ending up hereabouts, it seems).  Whilst it may be inviting, moreover, to identify this Ambresbury with Amesbury, at least one current expert I've consulted rubbishes the idea where another supports it.  I've
touched on the candidacies of Old Sarum and Avebury above - but I've expanded the problems research encounters here as a warning!  Caveat Emptor!  You'll notice, for instance, 'monastery, - but the Amesbury Abbey legend has Guinevere retiring to was a  ... nunnery.  And that wasn't built until the end of the C10th AD (unless there was a previous foundation/'cloister' - or even more than one, perhaps.  Fabio P. Barbieri uses the word 'if' in this context, that of the times of Ambrosius (Aurelianus),uncle of (legendary) Arthur.  It is noteworthy that Guinevere's nunnery was Black Benedictine, as was the Glastonbury Abbey and the claimed Nash Manor Monastery.

Note: I had a quick look at the on-line Iolo Series 3 Triads (link follows) and
found trivial differences - of Triad order rather than content - to the Probert
version.  Intriguingly, he comments, as a final note: 'Besides the text ... there
are two other copies printed in the Archaiology, differing ... in things of minor
importance' (pp 413-414)*.   Of these, Series 1 and 3 carry Perpetual Choir
Triads - variously at 80 and 84 (above). The Iolo on-line (Series 3 version)
carries 'Choir of Ambrosius in Ambresbury' (but it would do  - it's the Probert
translation and not exactly the Iolo original - and it's where I think John Michell
has 'at Ambresbury', from memory)
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain

*Probert:
A 'minor difference' !!!!!????, if such it be, exists twixt triad 80 Series 1
(p. 17 - and thanks to NLW for the copy) and triad 90 Series 3, both Myv:
Mangor becomes Bangor Illtud at Caer Worgorn, and Nghaer (Caer)
Garadawc becomes Cor Emrys in/at Caer Caradawg.  They don't look
that similar to me ... Methinks I've made this point somewhere else ...

The top comment in Wiki (ref above) draws its version of Iolo from Probert but borrows the note: 'These triads,
insofar as they are not fabricates of Iolo ... are the works of Welsh Antiquarians C16th-C18th.' 

BRITANNIC RESEARCHES ...., Book 3, p. 289, by Beale Poste, 1853
touches on this in a commentary on TRIADS by "Mr. Williams", 1840.  Iolo's
son - for that is who I think it is, carrying his father's work on, has Triads 2
and 3 referring to informative material:  'Moel Evwr'.  Now Poste equates this
with (Old) Sarum and dismisses Abury, Stonehenge and Ambresbury

http://books.google.com/books?id=2y8LAAAAYAAJ&dq
=beale+poste+britannic+researches&printsec
=frontcover&source=web&ots=LVrsOEct3C&sig
=KhqTZxiMjFr2FaEqwQhj7zqdWzg#PPA289,M1

I can't help but think that just the one Geoffrey of Monmouth sentence
- concerning the monastery founded by ?Abbot?* Ambrius ... Kaercaradoc
- has been distorted into the Cor Ambrosius at/in Ambresbury, the Mons
Ambrius AND the Caer Caradoc versions of the Triad site.  I find an
alternative to Richard Barber (above as "Cloister of Ambrius" (no Abbot)
... "not far from Kaercaradduc, which is now called Salisbury" with the
rider that elsewhere Geoffrey of Monmouth says this was a monastery of
300 brethren *founded by Ambrius ... and situated on Mount (Mons)
Ambrius - and noting Amesbury/Ambresbyrig is actually in a river valley. 
The authoress goes for Stonehenge itself (Cloister = covered arcade/arches
= henge kind of thinking) but I note the actual Amesbury Abbey site twixt
Stonehenge and Amesbury.  The ref. is

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/adventures240.htm

David Nash Ford's excellent EARLY BRITISH KINGDOMS website
further complicates, identifying both the 'cloister of Ambrius' on 'Mount
Ambrius' "for it was Ambrius, so they say, who founded the monastery
years before", identifying the monastic founder as the father of the cloister
founder, Ambrosius Aurelianus, uncle of legendary Arthur:
http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/articles/ambros03.html 
(Find David also at www.britannia.com/history/ebk/)

On this Nash Ford identification, Robert Vermaat (see below/Vortigern
Studies) writes (30-10-07):

Hmm, I had to read back what David says about that.. Yes, we disagree
there. David has a tendency to accept every duplication as historical (such
as where Vortigern's son Catigern is confused later with St. Kentigern, he
adds the latter to Vortigern's offspring), and he he accepts Ambrius as a
real person. Now I', personally convinced that Geoffrey of Monmouth
duplicated Amesbury by confusing the Latinised name of Ambresbyrig
(Ambrius Mons), confusing the English 'burg' (fort) with 'byrg' (hill). He
thus created two places, and retained the etymologous founder Ambrius
for the one, and Ambrosius for the other. David re-interpreted the
superfluous Ambrius with the 'father' of Ambrosius Aurelianus, whom we
meet fighting a Vitalinus near Wallop (not far from Amesbury) in 437.

More news on this: THE BEAUTIES OF WILTSHIRE ... by John
Britton, 3 Vols. 1801-1825.  To precis. he writes, P.128, of a triade on
'The three treacherous assemblies', one being 'on the mountain of Caradoc',
which he then has as near 'the present Ambresbury' ( I found other
mention elsewhere of Ambresbury - 'Ambresbury Plain' - dated early
C19th AD to confirm the use of 'Ambresbury' as a place/area). Elsewhere
Britton tells of "Vespasian's Camp" as a name {for Mount Ambri} there). 
He cross-refs this to Triad 84 (Iolo) to back up the Caer Caradoc-
Ambresbury idea.  And, elsewhere again, he writes of one Walter of
Oxford (d. circa 1151) who wrote in Welsh of 300 monks on Ambri
Mount (as above) - sourced from Vol ii, p.77 of Iolo.  But it appears
Geoffrey of Monmouth also cited Walter - albeit the common belief is
he was of Geoffrey's invention as a source.   And of Iolo's?  Under a
search for Walter I read 'supposed historian'!  Even stranger, I looked
up Probert's Iolo treacherous assemblies and it says (Triad 20) 'upon
Salisbury Plain' - not 'on the mountain of Caradoc' (which is Iolo's
Triad 20!) -  what the hell's going on?  Here's the ref.:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zCADAAAAYAAJ&dq
=%22the+beauties+of+wiltshire%22+britton&printsec
=frontcover&source=web&ots=ftjCofNotO&sig=
rKGBfb2Vln8tFZK7MG2D2b2Now4#PPA128,M1

The Bromwich TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN has Triad 51 as the
closest to Iolo 20, with no Saxon treachery at anywhere mentioned.

Note:  Britton - 'the choir of Ambrosius in Caer Caradoc' (not
Ambresbury), p. 128. Ambri Mount - p 124 - with Ambrosius going
to Salisbury to see the graves.  See also G of M p. 409 and Probert
p. 383 on.  Saxon treachery 'on the mountain of Caer Caradoc'
(G of M).  My Iolo carries:Fynydd (Mount ?of) Caer Caradawc',
no Ambresbury.  Was it William Stukeley caused (or more likely
inspired) this problem in his 1740 AD STONEHENGE ...., Chapter
X1, pp. 47-49?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/str/str13.htm

Noting that there have been confusions twixt Ambrosius (some)
and Ambrius (others and aka Ambrus/Ambri), Stukeley reasons that
there must have been the Ambers or Main Ambres with Stonehenge
Amesbury being Little Ambres and Stonehenge ... and so Stonehenge
becomes (magically, one might say) Ambresbury.  'Main' gets to cover
Mons/Mount ... 

I have been very fortunate in the help freely given me over the years by various
learned folk, and, not least, Robert Vermaat of VORTIGERN STUDIES - and
my thanks. Here's Robert to me (email, 29-10-07) on this subject:

Hi Geoff,
 ...  of course there were many lists going around that contained
speculation of where all the cities were that were mentioned in the
Historia Brittonum. Many scholars have attempted to name every
'caer', and maybe the identified towns are based on such
scholarship?
 
Cor Emrys might become Caer Caradoc if someone before that
had established a claim that the two were identical. Cor Ambrosius
would then become Amesbury, which goes back on Geoffrey of
Monmouth, who did not see that his Ambrius Mons and Amesbury
were in fact identical. He confused Ambresbyrig (the fortress of
Ambrosius) with Ambrius Mons (the hill of Ambr(os)ius). This
causes no wonder, for the Anglo-Saxon byrig can mean both
'fortress' (burgh) and 'hill' (byrg). Both names can be about one
and the same place: Amesbury and the surrounding area.
 
The identification of the plains of Amesbury (Stonehenge is meant)
and of Salisbury also predates Stukeley. I've argued here
(http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caerstone.htm) that already
Geoffrey linked Vortigern to Stonehenge, but the thirteenth-century
English poem 'Of Arthour and of Merlin' went one step further and
located the tower of Vortigern right in the middle of Stonehenge, but
naming that place "Vpon ye pleyn of Salesbury". Maybe that
was the time when both plains were intermingled, as today
'Salisbury Plain' is much larger and encompassing the Amesbury
region.
 
I'm glad my site was that helpful!
 
Cheers,

Stronghold places seem the key here.  We have Caer Caradocs named after that
eponymous hero, whilst there are numerous Caer Guorthegirn's (Vortigern) named
after that eponymous anti-hero, with Emrys/Ambrosius being the next king in line.
I dimly remember Old Sarum/Salisbury was a Caer Guorthegirn (and William of
Worcester says so) and Vespasian's Camp (by Amesbury and Stonehenge) could
be another such stronghold, perhaps? Yep!  I have a Vermaat ref. to Caer
Guorthegirn 'near Amesbury' (your ezboard forum, Robert!) whilst there is also
some thinking I've seen that the Ambrosius Aurelianus family estates were in the
Amesbury area - hence the name ...

Once again, for Old Sarum and related content of interest, Robert Vermaat:
www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caersalis.htm

To try to pull this altogether, then: I think the current state-of-play is that the
strongest probability is that Iolo invented Llanilltyd, Glastonbury and Emrys
(Ambrosius/Merlin) at Caer Caradoc whilst William Probert (possibly because
of  Stukeley and/or the Iolo Triad 20 'Mount') decided Caer Caradoc must be
Ambresbury and just replaced the one with the other.  If that IS the case, then
Probert is the origin the Stonehenge, Glastonbury, Llanilltyd threesome, and it
provenances back no earlier than 1823 AD!  I find the 1815 Ellis notes,
FABLIAUX, carries mention Saxon treachery on 'the plain of Ambresbury in
Wiltshire', p. 200.  This is not a triad reference.  Does he mean Salisbury plain
(c/o Stukeley) or what?  It just gets worserer and worserer ... It seems to be the
case (and possibly post-Stukeley) that Ambresbury and Salisbury are some
-times interchangeable terms for 'that part of the world'.*  For example, Iolo's
Triad 20 carries 'Fynydd (Mountain ?of) Caer Caradawc' for the (treacherous)
meeting with the Saxons but Probert's Triad 20 translation is 'upon Salisbury Plain'
(as against his Choir Ambrosius in Ambresbury for Caer Caradawg elsewhere -
Triad 84).

The OS ref. for Stonehenge is SU122422.  At SU146416 is a 'Fort' (Vespasian's
Camp/Mons Ambrius etc.) and, just by it, Amesbury Abbey, SU151417.  You can
interrogate the site on-line via get-a-map OS or www.multimap.com ... or Google
Earth.  David Nash Ford sites the Ambrius site here, Amesbury, it appears.

For an absolutely superb breakdown of the Amesbury/Ambrius et al (to go with
the Vermaat), take a look at Fabio P. Barbieri, HISTORY OF BRITAIN:

www.geocities.com/vortigernstudies/fabio/book6.7b.htm

There is one quibble, though:  the Perpetual Choirs given there are William
Probert's, from 1823 AD.

Note:  from NLW (and my thanks, 09-11-07):  source for Triad 80
of Myv., Series 1, Page 17, Book 2, is  Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt.
(1591-1666), as with the 1870 second edition:

Just Glastonbury, Caer Caradoc and Bangor.  No Iscoed or Maelawr ...
or Ambresbury!!!

I also found the 'Valley of Angels' in the context of yet another Perpetual Choir
threesome: Bangor Iscoed, Iona and Bangor Mor (taken to be the Abbey in
County Down, Ireland, and sited in said valley).  This North American Christian
- and, seemingly, Evangelical - (24/7) threesome is unique in that it has no
Glastonbury but claims to be provenanced in the Welsh Triads:

www.transformmi.com/247prayerhistory.php

*A bit of fun ... the Mayan time period due to end 2012 AD started 4125 years
before: 3113 BC.

There's the ruin of a flood-plain church - St John the Baptist - near to my site 'fix' here, and this reminds me: I must make mention of the missing St John leper provision at Stony/Old Stratford.  No-one seems to know exactly where it stood, but it was somewhere (also on a floodplain) near where 'x' marks the spot on the Watling (A5) - see the phi chalice, above.

POINT ST. JOHN

Detail "borrowed" from OS Getamap.

SM719257/8

The Pembrokeshire Coast west of St. David's and Latitude 51 53 N.  Until fairly
recently, naval maps did not carry 'Point St. John'.  It was OS first carried the
name and the date would be 1843.  Earlier OS maps just carry Pencarnan ('Little
Stony Head' - my attempt at translation).  Whereas there was an earlier provenance
for a relationship twixt St. John and the fields and shore at the site (circa 1800 AD,
I found), there is no justification for producing "Point St. John" from the Welsh/
English admixture documented.  It's an invention!

However, it is an invention familiar to Leonardo Da Vinci buffs - the St John (the Baptist) 'Pointer' finger symbology visible in the Last Supper et al is digitally a code for something or other, I gather.  It is now termed the 'John gesture'.

MOVING ON: JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA, VIRGIN EURGAIN ET AL.

" ... is said to be ... "

This is a translation taken from Harleian 3869, ANNALES CAMBRAIE (1 and 10)
/BONEDD Y SAINT/SANT/SEINT.*  There's no clue given as to who did the saying
here, but we are looking at two genealogies:  Morcant and Owain.  The latter was a
king of Deheubarth (a Welsh kingdom) mid-late C10th AD - and some date the
document to that time (and C12th AD is certain).  And this seems to be the source
of the 'fuss'.  The kings both trace their ancestry back to the 'shining one' Beli Mawr
and to Anna.  She 'is said to be' the cousin of the Virgin Mary.

*Note that the later ACHAU SAINT PRYDEIN is considered a later and corrupted development.  The excellent Les Stills'
Lundy, Isle of Avalon site carries the ACHAU details here: Bran the Blessed, Arwystli Hen,, his son Manaw/Maw, Ilid and
Cyndaf, "Men of Israel".  Reference is also made to unnamed "Welsh Manuscripts" carrying the threesome Ilid, Cydaf and his
son Mawan.  These are not identified in the source but are generally believed to refer to Joseph of Arimathea, his son Josephes
and his brother-n-law (c/o Anna/Enygeus above) Bron/Hebron .... Bran.  I've asked Les Stills about the source - the  dodgy
Liber Landavensis of Llandaff,  perhaps?

www.lundyisleofavalon.co.uk/godsetc/joseph.htm

To be fair, though,  Dr. Rachel Bromwich's unadulterated Welsh Triads carry a reference to "the lineage of Joseph of Arimathea
... Saintly ... of the Island of Britain" (Triad 81) as one of 3 notable family lines.  So there is evidence of a tradition of the
kin/descendants of Joseph in Britain.  Other Cornish traditions noted by Les Stills support a British connection, possibly by
way of tin-mining.  Hence, perhaps, William Blake's "And did those feet", where the legend is that Jesus accompanied Joseph
to these shores?  Note that Triad 81 (c/o Bromwich) comes in 2 versions.  The second makes no mention whatsoever of a
Joseph (or Ilid).  I've asked the British Library to send me the Bromwich provenances for this triad and will update as and
when.  Probert's mention of a St Cyllin also ties to this Grail family of Eurgain, daughter of Caradoc.  His sister.

STOP PRESS: reply here from British Library - and my thanks:  Bromwich writes that Joseph was a replacement for the
original entry, Caw of Pictland,  possibly by a 'redactor' (editor) influenced by Graal stuff - so circa C12th AD (with Caw
being unfashionable and,  hence, 'obliterated').?  Iolo Morganwg, she continues, replaced Joseph,  in turn, with 'Caradoc,
son of Llyr' (mentioning Joseph - as Joseph and not Ilid - in a footnote to this triad).  This, says Bromwich, is a 'unique
instance in which Iolo .. tampered with the text of the First Series.  As far as I can tell, so far, 'Ilid' is not a Triad  but he
is in the 'Iolo MSS - see below.  Bromwich suggests Iolo gave Joseph the boot (my phrase!) because he was enamoured
of the idea Caradoc brought Christianity to these Isles. The Probert triads (notably 18) seem to indicate the threesome
Caradoc, Cunneda Wledig and Brychan of Breconshire.  Bromwich (81 and 81 C 18) carries Joseph of Arimathea, Cunedda
Wledig (Kenneth the Great) and Brychan Bryeniog (of Breconshire) as well as the Caw of Pictland version
http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/triads.htm

I would also direct you to a site that seems hybrid in that it gives Triad 18 as the Iolo 'Joseph' combination but Triad 86
(CPC 84 in Iolo and 90 in Bromwich!) in identical terms to Probert's translated ANCIENT LAWS OF CANBRIA:
http://tylwythteg.com/triads/triads.html : basically Glastonbury, Llantwit Major and 'Ambrosius in Ambresbury'
(Stonehenge). This combination is pure Probert's 'take' on Iolo.

Note (01-11-07):  Taliesin Willams (ab Iolo), 1848: A SELECTION OF (his dad's) ANCIENT WELSH MANUSCRIPTS ... , annotated.  Page 508 on is interesting here:  the text gives the Caw, Cunedda and Brychan threesome for the Holy Families but then derives Caw from Bran the Blessed, son of Llyr, father of Cyllin and Eigen (wife of Sarrlog of Caersarrlog ... Old Sarum) and accompanied from Rome by St. Ilid.  Neat.  And the other two?  Descended from Ceol Godebog -  think Beli Mawr, his Anna, and Lludd!  Link - there's also an 1888 online version that is searchable online. This text was edited by the Rev. Thomas Rice, not Taliesin, from p. 494 on, it seems -  a death:

http://www.google.co.uk/books?vid=OCLC06516297&id
=TnBoaWNvArEC&pg=RA4-PA473&lpg=RA4-PA473&dq
=maen+cetti&as_brr=1<br%20/>#PRA2-PA508,M1

The other sources date to,  roughly: 955 AD BONEDD Y SAINT/ANNALES
CAMBRAIE (with the form of Welsh used indicating older provenance, I gather),
1200 AD ACHAU'R SANT, some triads (Peniarth 16 and 45) to late C13th AD,
the WHITE BOOK  at 1325 AD and the RED BOOK at 1400 AD.  The LIBER
LANDAVENSIS/BOOK OF LLAN DAV (of which the LLANDAFF CHARTERS
are part)  is housed in the Vatican, it seems, the orignal, that is, and dates to circa
1120-1140 as was an attempt to upgrade the status of the See of Llandaff.  So
Joseph lands there, it seems, rather than the more traditional Glastonbury!  The
author of  ACHAU'R looks the real villain re Ilid, et al  (Man/Men if Israel) so far. 
And inventive clerical forgery was far from unique ...

Search for Percy E Corbett, Cor of Ilid (where Eurgain - like Ilid, of ACHAU'R fame but not BONEDD - gets to be patroness
of St Paul's Llanilid foundation where Aristobolus/Arweystli Hen/Senex gets to be i/c, whilst Archdruid Bran the Blessed
rules the roost in Siluria).  You could explore the "SONNINI MS", the "PAULIAN (Cor of Ilid) MS", hope-of-israel, Andrew
Collins (particularly useful here), et al et al (various relevant publications include Rev RW Morgan, PAUL IN BRITAIN (1860),
Jowett's THE DRAMA OF THE LOST DISCIPLES (1961) and JW Taylor's THE COMING OF THE SAINTS (1969).  Lost
Tribes of Israel stuff/Llandaff rules OK!.  There get to be THE TRIADS OF PAUL THE APOSTLE, preserved, apparently,by the
Cor of Ilid,  first Christian Church, and also "discovered"  by Iolo in a pre-Reformation MS to become part of his infamous
Series 111.

Find the whole Corbett doc.(built heavily on other refs. here) at http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/whybritain.html

My BRISTOL CHANNEL article (Google Docs) - http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dhsvjc9j_0gd5gzz) tells me Percy Corbett's
WHY BRITAIN links Iolo Morganwg to Eurgain.  He writes of 'the famous Iolo MS' that mentions her and of Jestyn ap Gwrgant
(deposed C11th ruler of Glamorgan) and his C11th AD ref. to the 'saints of Cor-Eurgain' (although of Llan-ilid and not the
Llanilltyd in Corbett).  It was Iolo M. wrote the LIFE of JESTYN ...

Update 2:  You would do well to heed the caveat in Andrew Collins' THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY GRAIL re provenances
for things like Joseph/Ilid - I'll put up the link anon.*  I decided to dig a little more myself and a character called merlyn, who
seems passionate about these (and related) matters can be found at  http://merlynscave.bravepages.com/llantwit.htm and
http://wintersteel.homestead.com/The_Holy_Grail.html where he cites the Welsh Triads (which we've seen off), the Llandaff
Charters (which we've seen off) and  "Welsh Chronicles".  I had a look for these and for 'a selection ancient manuscripts'
(which translates as the Iolo MSS - and we've seen that off, too - the Saint Ilid ... Eurgain(e) stuff)  and we end up with the
unimpeachable source of Maelgwyn of Llandaff, a 'mediaeval manuscipt attributed to ...'  This Maelgwyn dated to circa AD 450,
which isn't in the least bit mediaeval, and was the 'uncle of Arthur' (draw your own conclusions).  This is the source for Joseph
being buried at 'Avalon' and 'a grant of land ... by Gweirydd/Arviragus'.  It is the 'attributed to' that's the problem here.  There
are no surviving manuscripts from circa AD 450.  There is no evidence Maelgwyn of Llandaff ever existed! 

*Find the (lengthy) Collins ref. at http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/avalon.htm

A curiosity is the collection of Pauline Triads, ten in all, I believe (though I've found a site with more!).  They are said to have
been preserved by the Cor of Llan-ilid (assoc. Eurgain(e) above) - Iolo again?  See Corbett. 

David Nash Ford (www.britannia.com) points out Beli Mawr's a bit too old for her - perhaps, he suggests, there's been a conflation of the Mother goddess Anu with Mary's cousin.  After all other saints (and dates, etc.) get superimposed on older traditions (Brighid becomes St. Bride, for example). 

Somehow this grows.  Anna has a brother, not mentioned in the genealogies, in Joseph of Arimathea, and she - or his daughter Anna (possibly same person? using 'cousin'; loosely) - marries Caradoc/Caratacus/Caractacus, son of (Archdruid) Bran the Blessed, son of Lludd/Lud/Naud/Nodens, son of Beli Mawr, husband of  Don/Dana/Danu/Anu.  So, unless there's been this conflation, Anna, possibly,  marries her own grandson.  Neat trick.  Even neater given Bran the Blessed is the son of Llyr, not Lludd, who is married to Beli Mawr's (and Anu's) daughter, Penarddun, sister of Lludd.  And even neater given Caradoc is the son of Cunobelinus, great grandson of Beli Mawr, making Anu/Anna wife of her own great great grandson.  It's a mess.  But out of it emerges the Virgin Foundress of Glamorgan, Wales and Britain, Princess Eurgain (Eigen in Taliesin ab Iolo).wife of Salog/Salisbury and associated with Llanilid and Llantwit (all mentioned above).

The children of Don (incl. Lludd and the children of Lludd/Nudd) and the children of Llyr are seen as quite separate in Welsh tradition - although some wonder
whether Lludd and Llyr might be the same person ... or first cousins.  Of note here, though, is the identification of Llyr/Leir/King Lear with Leicester.  Particularly with an area near Dane Hills (the toots of Danu, to some) and the River Soar burial place of Lear.  Now this would be where Michell's original maths would put us, and the site is more-or-less exactly indicated on the (Holy Grail) Phi Chalice detailed above: the Fosse Way,  Enderby area.  Lludd, meanwhile, appears on our 'story' at Lydney, River Severn, just across from from our where-the-lady's-legs-meet 'precious gem'
at Berkeley.

THE MODEL CENTRE

For a beautifully written and presented exploration of the area of the CPC model
centre, the Malverns, I highly recommend the site that pointed me upwards in the
first place: http://moelbryn-eastnor.blogspot.com   Moggz's picture of Eastnor from
the top of Raggedstone inspired me not only to make the trip but also to climb the
climb!  At the top of which a breathless red-faced old me was confronted by
skipping 'n jumping 4-year-olds.

Picture the property of Moggz of the White Leaf Collective and the website above.  Thanks.

My derived centre for the Michell CPC centre isn't the Whiteleaved Oak site he gives but is slightly to the north and on Raggedstone, a site with death-shadow legend attached.  The precise spot is just a little down the hillside behind where this shot of  Eastnor was taken.  As the base of the CPC is the Lat. mirror 51.115 - WhiteSheet Hill (by Great Bottom!) - so the centre is the Lat. mirror 52.025.* and **

The length of a degrre of Latitude varies - the furthger north (or south) of the Equator you are the longer it gets. 
It follows that the legth will change slightly depending on whether you are 'facing' north or south!  Rough guides are that
at 51 degrees N the value is 69.12631224098468 miles, at 52 degrees north 69.135165095, and, at 53 degrees north,
69.1499185 degrees north or so.

An angle from the Earth's centre to North Pole (1) and Parthenon's Great Circle azimuth (2) is said to be 52.03 degrees.

The difference 52.025 - 51.115 is 0.910 (albeit as a straight line describing a slightly curved surfac, the Earths e - a
design flaw admitted here!).  The model angle is 3 degrees off OS 'up@ (slightly off atlas north - which generates design
flaw 2) ans I'm going to perform a plane geometry calculation on a curved surface ( = design flaw 3): 0.91 /Cos 3 = 0.91124. 
If I now muliply the Lat. value given above for 52 degrees (bearing in mind it is really a variable = design flaw 4) then our
outcome is 63.00146 miles.  The error is 2.5696 yards, approximately!  (At 51 degrees it would be 17.6 yards - so you can
see that, despite the flaws, we're going to be pretty close here!).

**52 is a number Gary Osborn finds as a thematic angle in art, 1515-1717 AD.  It's also 234 X 4 ... where 23.4 describes
the tropical Latitudes, the other angle in a right-angled + 66.6 triangle, whilst also conspiring , decimal pointless,with its
mirror, 432, to produce 666

Footnote: In the above I have been blessed with the help of so many people
and institutions.  My thanks!!!!  It does indeed seem to obtain: 'Ask and .... ". 
Witness in this the great value in the internet as a research tool - this article
has been largely built (and had its infinitives split!) at a computer in a small Norfolk village.  I have to acknowledge, particularly, my own local library (Dersingham), the Goring and Streatley LHA, the British Library (BL,  Emma et al at Maps and at Rare-Books!), the National Library of Wales (NLW/Martin!)), Bangor University Library, the Radnorshire Society Library, Keele University Library, the Ordnance Survey, English Heritage (Stonehenge), Staffordshire Library Service, Oxfordshire Studies, the various HistoricalSites/Monuments and  Records departments (once'SMR', now 'HER') of the counties the study 'visits', the Newtown Library, Moggz of the Malverns (Sam), George Firsoff, Chris Street, Paul Weston, Robert Vermaat, John Michell, Andy Evans (I commend his fascinating site
www.wondersofbritain.org site), Simon Meecham-Jones,"Goringgapwalks"
(Bernard), Stephen Dail (of Celestial Chessworks), Derek Skhane, and .. well,
everyone else really, be they saint or sinner!  But pray heed to the caveat attached: 
the old maxims still apply regarding provenancing.  Too many people are either
too trusting, too much on-a-mission or just too plain idle to put in  the 'hard
miles'.  The recycled drivel that results does the internet no service!

Geoff Simmons

21-11-07

Postscript: re musical scales (and somewhat appropriate in the context of
Perpetual Choirs, n'est pas).  The SOUND OF MUSIC's Do-Re-Me-Fa-So
-La-Te-Do is recent. It is called the "Twelve-tone equal temperament" and
and is a 7 note scale on a 12 note octave.  John Michell writes, I note, of a
relationship twixt 7 and 12 (where one is, esoterically, the other) and a for
instance that occurs is the the 7 Heavenly Bodies (Ptolmaic etc) and the
12 zodiac houses.  Then there's the Nag Hammadi finds that mention the
12 disciples of Jesus + 7 female followers (SOPHIA OF JESUS and
FIRST APOCALYPSE OF JAMES).  There's also the simple 3 + 4 v 3 X 4,
and there's the interfaces of a 2 X 2 X 2 cube (12) being just 7 when the
eight cubes are lined up.  But you can't fit the musical 7 and 12 to this idea
until the C16th AD.  There used to be a scale of 6 notes and it is called the
Aretinian scale after  C11th AD Guido of Arezzo (and "Just Intonation"-
see also plainchant/plainsong).  Guido used a C8th AD hymn by Paulus
Dioconus about .... John the Baptist.  Put to music - as a 'Gregorian chant'
- it rises up through this earlier scale with the words picking out the letters
of the old notes of the 6-noted ("hexachord") scale: Ut, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La. 
Look at words 1, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 (or their beginnings):

Ut queant laxis resonare fibris,
Mira gestorum famuli tuorem,
Solve pollutis labiis reatum,
Sancte Iohannes

From the C16th century on, increasingly, a seventh note was added (and
note frequencies were adjusted, 'Do'  (doh) moving fom 528 Mhz to the
modern 512, it seems).  The same poem that illustrated  the 6-note names
sourced the name of the new comer : Si (now Te/Ti)*.  These three are
discoverable in Sancte Iohannes, Saint Iohannes, John the Baptist.  We
are looking, therefore,  at note number 7, the virgin number, as note St
John the Baptist, a noted virgin.

Do replaced Ut in the C17th AD. For more, search (ancient) Solfeggio
scale, Aretinian, Guido of Arezzo, 'just intonation', plainchant/plainsong,
and cymatics (the healing destructive - Walls of Jericho! - qualities of the
older scale, allegedly, which, apparently, repairs DNA). 

Look at http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/01jan/solfeggio.html

*I have to note some credit the French Le Marie, C17th AD, here.  Te arrived
in the C19th AD UK but is Ti/Si in the States.  I found BREWER'S Ed. 14,
p. 47!, of especial use in this line of enquiry.

Returning to the Severn and its pure 'virgin' waters: REVELATION puts a
tree of life on either side of the 'street' (course) of it.  Now it that 2 trees of life,
one either side, or is it just the one, straddling it?  If the latter, then two things
emerge: firstly the paths of the tree of life (22) give us 22 over Severn (virgin/7
and , ?, 'mind below', he phren/Hafren); secondly, we have the 10 sepirots to
distribute on either side of this tree of life (where the river gets to be the gnostic
serpent on it in Paradise!).  Suppose they are our 10 decagon vertices ...

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